Back from Summit, and my hopes renewed

[Diku]

Well, I had some sleep and I've thought some more.

SOE just doesn't get it.

This isn't our game.

They had this slogan "You're in OUR world now!" It meant, SOE was making this wonderful world where everyone in the the real world could go to get away from RL and enjoy themselves in a fantasy environment. What made the world of Norrath so wonderful is that it had it's own set of rules that you couldn't break and couldn't change and they were a little different than the real world. There were still some limits on what you could and couldn't do.

Now SOE is going, we'll give you whatever you want as long as you'll be happy and keep playing. We'll make all the mobs drop candy and cupcakes and tickle you with feathers! We'll let you go wherever you want whenever you want! All those rules from "The Old EQ" that you don't like, forget about them! We'll let you have whatever you like. You want your own private dungeon to play in? Done! You want the game easier? Done! you want things simplified? Done! You want the abilities of another class? Done!

On and on SOE has bent, broken, and destroyed all of those rules that "The Old EQ" had that made things consistent. They've given you everything you wanted and everything your neighbor wanted and everything everyone wanted.

This whole Summit idea was flawed from the start, SOE should know how to make great games, the devs should know what's wrong with their game. SOE this is YOUR game you tell us how it works! All I hear is SOE rolling over and pandering to everyone's wants.

When you raise a kid and give him everything he wants when he wants it... He turns into a spoiled little shit that doesn't appreciate anything. Your spoiled brat will tire of the next toy faster than his last toy and it will never get any better. You'll never be able to satisfy his greed.

I'm afraid SOE is never going to say "No, you can't have that. It wouldn't be good for the game." They'll just keep blasting away at the things that originally made this their world. And when all is said and done, the same people they gave everything to, just to appease them, will drop EQ and move on to the next toy.

Unfortunately I think everyone at SOE has forgotten how to make a good game. I know I'm the in the minority when I say I miss The Vision(tm) but they knew what they wanted and they knew how to make a good game.

It seems to me, all of the leadership at SOE has either left or put money before the good of the game. I just don't see any direction anymore.

It's like a ship full of pirates with all of the officers below deck playing with their plundered treasure as their ship drifts at sea blowing whichever way the winds are headed. SOE needs a captain take charge of the crew and point the ship in the right direction and stop drifting. A captain who will use the winds to make the ship go where he wants it to go.

[Squidgy]

-AA's will soon be able to increase buff slots.

Was there any discussion at all about also offering one more spell gem slot through AAs?

[Trellium]

Good points, Diku.

[Sokl]

I'll cast a vote for "charm nerf" to be the first Chanter specific issue we deal with then as its come up several times in this thread and its something very close to my heart.

If we can work as a group and come to an agreement on something like that we'll be ready for anything

[Juwel]

-AA's will soon be able to increase buff slots.

Was there any discussion at all about also offering one more spell gem slot through AAs?

I'm not aware of anything specific, though I will be sure to submit this as well to the AA guy. It's possible it was talked about one on one with someone, or given as feedback in one of the other groups. There were 5 groups of people doing feedback, and we all rotated groups of programers and CS.

[Kit]

/agree Diku

That is my fear as well.

Taking ideas from the playerbase is a tried a true method of improving MMO games (from the ealiest of MUDs), but you have to balance that against the good/balance of the game as whole. SoE seems to be of the mindset lately that best way to retain their playerbase is to give them whatever they want. I think they will find (as you pointed out) that will only satisfy 'the complainers' for so long, then they will want more, and more, and will finally quit the game because 'its too easy'. People are already are leaving for that reason.

That said, I know that there are many, many legitimate gripes about current gameplay and if SoE can effectively pull those from the 'gimme!' complaints and address one w/o caving to the other I hold out hope the game may continue to be fun in something other than a /godmode = on, kind of way.

[Ramgar]

I am far from an expert on EQ. But I do know what I like.

I like playing EQ because talking to other people and doing things with them in a fantasy setting is a blast. EQ is about people and interacting with them. Yes, you can also solo and see a lot of interesting things, but IMO you are missing 90% of the entertainment value.

It amazed me when they changed spells and didn't make you cast it to find out if the mob was immune. It gave you precognitive ability to not cast a spell. Handy? yes, very. Logical, no. The simple fact is, you taregted a spell at them, they should react. Unintelligent things should react accordingly, and ditto with intelligent beings, rather than having everything react with aggro. If a creature is immune, why would they bother paying attention to it at all, or if they are too stupid to notice? Does a fire elemental get mad at fire? No. You need to be logical in immunities as well. Why can't I snare this mob? The reason should never be because druid could easily kite it.

More levels is not the answer IMO. Look how it trivialized Kunark Dragons and old world content. If you insist on more levels/better gear, the world should be consistent and able to handle the characters in it. There needs to be content specific to the level of playing one does throughout the world, not just the current expansion. The new Droga and CT are small steps towards this, I'd like to see larger steps taken.

EQ has some basic flaws. Why in the world would a mob stay and fight when vastly outnumbered? I'd go get help/run/hide/surrender. There are many options besides fight to the death. To deal with this, sony made single mobs be a challenge to a group. This breaks charm and gives charmers the power of an entire group.

Encounters are fun, not pulling mob after mob. EQ centers around the "camp" concept. Lets go back to the old dungeon crawl, burst into a room and deal with it. Maybe one mob runs to the next room to get help, maybe they all try and take you on. If several of them die, shouldn't the rest get worried they will join them? I'd love to kick in a door and have a bunch of goblins run for their life, and then the leader rallies them to attack. I'd love to see ambushes set up and thought out traps. More AI please. Maybe we could zone into an encounter and have the last person to enter start the timer.

I would also like to see more places/events change and evolve like our characters do. Poor old Grobb is a great example. There are way too many empty zones. Work on them please. Most of the chore is done, just change the content.

[Juwel]

I echo the sentiment that SOE needs to be careful here. Like you said Kit, there are many legitimate complaints. And the list is very long just trying to get caught up on long standing problems.

My hope is that they don't just give everyone everything they want. If any of you have seen the movie "Bruce Almighty" it kinda fits here. When Bruce gave everyone what they wanted the world went nuts.

I hope they are able to maintain a balance keeping what's good for everyone in mind.

[Brenlo]

You are absolutely correct Juwel (Sure was great to meet you =)

We do have to be careful and balance (that mysterious balance word) the wants of the community against the health of the game. At the end of it all we will not have touched everything that each group wants changed and folks are going to have to reconcile that in thier own minds. We want this game to last, part of the longevity (along with listening to the community) also comes from knowing when to say No. Now the key is to say no and provide a reason. That is what we will try to do for any changes we cannot or will not make.

Thanks for all the hard work this weekend Juwel. I really appreciated it.

Brenlo

[Kit]

As much as everyone railled against 'The Vision (tm)' and Brad's refusal to budge from it, 'The Vision(tm)' is what kept SoE from becoming like Bruce Almighty.

Note to any devs who are stopping by. BEFORE you implement anymore of the ideas from the summit and in particular any more of the ideas from the 'top 10 class issues' lists, sit down amoung yourselves and ask yourselves 'What is OUR Vision of what EQ should be? Where do we want EQ to be in 5-10 years? MAP OUT that progression! You have to KNOW just how much power you are already going to be giving classes in the future before you can make changes to gameplay that DRAMATICALLY effect that future.

When EQ was created there wasn't a 10yr map in place for character progression, because it was among there very first of its kind. I guarantee that the smart players in the MMO business today, map our player progression and balance for at least a decade's worth of expansions. You're behind the curve here (despite and because you were the pioneers) its time to set it straight. Have a game plan, before you make the big changes, I BEG you. I love this game, I've loved it since my ranger first set foot in Norrath in Beta 1, Don't ruin it for everyone by implementing the 'quick fix'! [-o<

[Diku]

We want this game to last, part of the longevity (along with listening to the community) also comes from knowing when to say No.

I find this hard to believe, afterall you guys came out with GoD. Who was saying No then?

Anyway until SOE proves they are actually doing things to improve the game instead of maintaining the current state of Appeasement I will remain a skeptic.

Words are cheap, posting in a forum saying what people want to hear is easy. Actually getting management to follow through with promises you make on their behalf is an entirely different challenge.

I still see no more than token short term changes designed to put a bandage over a festering sore because people are complaining about the way it looks.

Give us a long term roadmap, give us REAL changes for the betterment of the game. Tell us what you are planning and tell us what the "NEW VISION" for EQ is because I don't see one yet.

*edit: fixed quote tag*

[Unmei]

Ramgar - what you've described is not EQ.

Especially:

Lets go back to the old dungeon crawl, burst into a room and deal with it.

EQ has never featured dungeon crawls. Ever. They tried to encourage them with the one-way kunark dungeons, and wound up creating a bunch of dungeons no one used (except for Sebilis, which everyone used because it was the only place that gave good XP in the upper 50's.)

LDoN, a relatively recent invention, is the closest EQ has ever gotten to getting its players to crawl.

[ootpek]

I used to drag groups into crawling. As far back as Splitpaw and hell...even Blackburrow. (Ok...so I have a thing against Gnolls.) The problem with crawling and why people don't do it is one of the things that drive me nuts about EQ on occasion. I love crawling. Sitting in a camp and pulling can be mindnumingly boring.

If they could make some dungeons that either 1 encouraged crawling or 2 punished staying in one place I think that would be awesome.

Ldon's encourage crawling because there's nothing nearby if you stay in one place.

An alternative could be a little script where if as a group you stay in one place too long the mobs nearby wise up to you and launch a massed attack. That would be fun. And people would crawl to avoid it if there was a chance of a wipe with it. Script could be as easy as popping a minor named a little bit away from the group and have it's aggro range extreme so it comes after the group and brings friends with it. Don't have it drop anything ever or people would stay in one place for the drops. Heh.

People are lazy and camp in one spot to make the game easier. Make that strategy not worth it and they will do some more work. Makes it more challenging and perhaps more fun even!!!

[Mezrin Kortex]

I understand everyone skepticism and I don't blame you. I too have my doubts, but instead of complaining more and giving myself a headache, i am living with this 3 word mantra.

Time - Will - Tell

[Sunaeri]

I like crawling too. PoI is good for crawling. What makes it good is that crawling isn't forced, so a group can do it or not as they desire.

[Kit]

We do have to be careful and balance (that mysterious balance word) the wants of the community against the health of the game. At the end of it all we will not have touched everything that each group wants changed and folks are going to have to reconcile that in thier own minds. We want this game to last, part of the longevity (along with listening to the community) also comes from knowing when to say No. Now the key is to say no and provide a reason. That is what we will try to do for any changes we cannot or will not make.

Brenlo

Heh you must have posted this while I was busy typing up my reply. I'm glad to hear that is the case, I look forward to seeing how that 'balancing act' comes out. Just remember when you say no, and people get up in arms and threaten to quit,etc that there are probably 1000x as many players out there that don't visit message boards, that will thank you for sticking to your guns and not letting a very vocal minority ruin the challenge of the game for them.

Now... reassure Diku and myself :wink: and let us know that the EQ1 team does have (or is developing) a LONG TERM (i.e. at least the next 5 years.. better the next 10 years!) plan as regards expansions and PC/NPC progression. I can't stress enough how CRUCIAL I believe this to be to EQs long term health.

[Twizlewink]

I understand everyone skepticism and I don't blame you. I too have my doubts, but instead of complaining more and giving myself a headache, i am living with this 3 word mantra.

Time - Will - Tell

Similar in sentiment to the three words that keep running through my mind...

Talk - Is - Cheap. :twisted:

[Nydia Ywalmoriel]

EQ has never featured dungeon crawls. Ever. They tried to encourage them with the one-way kunark dungeons

Kunark was by *far* my favorite expansion, and was a small guild paradise. Our guild crawled every single one of those dungeons multiple times, from Kurn's Tower to Dalnir to Kaesora to Nurga/Droga to Sebilis, Chardok, and Howling Stones. To say that EQ has never featured dungeon crawls and that people do not like them is simply untrue. What were the last 'old world' haunts that long-term players reluctantly left behind? Sebilis and Chardok... Why? Because they were exciting, fast paced, challenging, and featured great loot that was obtainable by 1-2 groups.

Furthermore, these dungeons had great replay value and weren't disposable 'stepping stones' to raid content, although they contained raid encounters within their depths, and they had actual comprehensible lore connected with them.

Our guild has more recently crawled, and enjoyed, both the Droga (although Droga was a bit dumbed down imho) and the CT revamps. I remember, shortly after the Droga revamp came out, one night where several groups from small guilds on our server were all grouped there, in different parts of the dungeon, joking with and heckling each other across OOC. Our Cleric (who had just gotten SCF3) was with us in the King room; a group from KILL was above working the Seer. At one point he hit three critical blasts in about a minute's time which was followed by a string of obscenities from their warrior (who had 'heard' it) . The groups pulled towards each other, traded buffs and ribbing, and continued on our way. That evening felt a lot like the old days in Seb or Chardok, and you just *don't get that* with instanced dungeons. This sort of content (geared towards 60-65 'weekend warriors') is *exactly* what will keep folks who want a challenge, but have no interest in being forced into a raiding juggernaut, coming back to play... not canned, no respawn, disconnected from everything, LDoNs.

Sincerely,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Past Coercer - Autonomous Collective
Ayonae Ro

[Badmorda]

Umm...it has been 2 whole days since the conference ended. What exactly do you expect? A 5 year plan laid out in two days? Do you want a major patch tomorrow to implement everything that was discussed this past weekend?

Yes, they have made mistakes, and they have openly admitted them. But this is the first real step they have taken to address it. This wasn't some two line blurb in one forum saying we are working on it. This is a major eye opener for them, and us. Give em a break, and give em a chance. Up to now, from my impressions of the summit write-ups, they really had no idea the state that EQ was in, at least not fully. But now they do, and I expect big things, and I will reserve my judgement on whether they will follow through until they have been given sufficient time TO follow through.

As far as not liking the direction Eq has taken, I have to ask, why are you still playing? This direction took place long before now. EQ has evolved greatly since it first came out. Each expansion has done nothing but attempt to expand the world to keep people exploring. Some ideas were good, some weren't so good. But I haven't seen anything yet that is just pure crap for the sake of an expansion just to feed the bottom line, at least, not on purpose. Sure they have had problems with quality, and sure, some of it hasn't been balanced worth a darn, but that is what they are going to attempt to correct now.

If you are not enjoying the game anymore, or you truly believe that SoE has no intention of following through with this, then there is a button on the login screen that is labeled "Cancel subscription". Find a game that makes you happy, or find a life that makes you happy. If you can honestly tell me that over the last 5 years that overall, the good doesn't outweigh the bad, then EQ is not the place for you.

For myself, I have been entranced since I made my first character back in '99, when my ranger fell out of Kelethin on many occasions and lost everything because I didn't have a clue what was going on. And now, the prospect of the future excites me more. If they don't truly follow through, then I will also consider moving on, reluctantly, I might add, but I will if I no longer find the game fun.

[Twizlewink]

Umm...it has been 2 whole days since the conference ended. What exactly do you expect?

I expect them to continue screwing up like they have in the past - why would I expect anything else? EQ has been ripe with great ideas from day one and I personally don't think that's the issue, it's implimentation and testing of these ideas that's been the major failure not the ideas themselves.

As for your advice I cancelled my subscription back in November, I'm still waiting for compelling evidence to give EQ a second shot. They have until the release of WoW before I give up on the franchise entirely, and as I've mentioned before I really hope they can actually get their act together.

[Kit]

Umm...it has been 2 whole days since the conference ended. What exactly do you expect? A 5 year plan laid out in two days? Do you want a major patch tomorrow to implement everything that was discussed this past weekend?

Naw. Thats exactly it.. Its only been 2 days, and they are already patching stuff in, making plans to make BIG changes. I want them to STOP, and THINK about the LONG term, BEFORE they make those changes.

I love the game, I've been playing a long time, multiple chars, which turned into multiple accounts when they allowed you to split them off. I really want the game to be around for a long time to come, which is why I'm so impassioned to speak out over it. I realize this is a time of renewed awareness at SoE, and I think they understand that a big part of the problem has been lack of adequate planning, so I want them to LEARN THAT LESSON. Make the LONG TERM plans they need BEFORE they make anymore big changes. Where is the harm in that? I can see only good.

[Badmorda]

The stuff listed in the next patch was mentioned on EQLive before the summit took place.

Anyway, my point is, Fight the fight or leave. Sticking around just to tell Sony how awful they are is counter-productive.

[Kit]

The stuff listed in the next patch was mentioned on EQLive before the summit took place.

Anyway, my point is, Fight the fight or leave. Sticking around just to tell Sony how awful they are is counter-productive.

Time instancing changes and Gunthak portal are both from the summit. And I think I've made it quite clear that I'm here to 'Fight the Fight'. Unlike many others I been asking for FEWER changes not more. (Where did I say Sony was aweful?)

I've frequented these boards since late last year, but only started posting more recently.. why? Because I'm alarmed at the trends. More and more people screaming 'Give me this, Give us that, where's my /godmode option?! .. ok maybe not the last.. but it seemed that way to me at times. (I gave up the Ranger boards due to that, Thank you again Juwel for keeping this site a place of civil discourse) Juwel, if I may ask, how many people at the summit expressed concern over these issues? Did anyone ask why they've made so much of the game ridiculously easy, and if they felt it was good for its long term health?

Am I the ONLY person who's worried about the long term?!?!? :cry:

[Trellium]

Umm...it has been 2 whole days since the conference ended. What exactly do you expect?

Absolutely - and I find it astonishing that you don't expect a long term plan for a game that has existed for 5 years. We knew what "The Vision" was, but what is the vision today? I play the game, and I have no idea.

I don't expect them to have it done within two days of the conference ... I had EXPECTED it to be done YEARS before it!

[Dygar]

EQ has never featured dungeon crawls. Ever.

Might as well derail since this topic is worn pretty thin for the time being but I was doing nothing but dungeon crawls in EQ from spring of 99 through Velious and to a limited extent in Luclin. We were crawling through blackburrow in all sorts of group sizes and compositions at L10 before we even understood player roles. Challenging dungeon crawls were the reason I didn't return to UO after playing EQ. I'm hard pressed to remember not doing dungeon crawls for all but a small fraction of my levels.

EQ features more dungeon crawls than any other game I can think of. Just because people choose the easy/boring way out by grinding xp in Loio->DL doesn't mean they don't exist.