Back from Summit, and my hopes renewed

[Juwel]

Seeing as it's almost 1 am and I've been on a plane all day, I'll just write up a brief summary of my impressions of the Summit.

First off, the people I met were fantastic all around. There was a wide variety of players with many points of view. From high content, to more casual players. Several classes were in attendence, though to be honest, most of the time was spent in round table discussing content, guild improvements, customer service improvments. I had hoped to be able to spend more time dicussing specific class issues, this was my only disappointment of the weekend. Well also one more, but I will mention that in a bit.

Showing up my, expectations were high, though in all honesty I was a bit sceptical of what would happen once we sat down with the devs, the CS guy, and Smedely himself. I wasn't sure if they would be spending a chunk of time defending some of the issues, or trying to work a lil PR. I'm thrilled to say this was NOT the case at all. During the entire weekend I encountered none of this in any form.

Instead the developers, the artists, customer service approached the weekend with open minds and pen in hand. They asked lots of questions in order to understand the perspective. My impression when the weekend was over? Two groups of people had come together with open minds and a true to desire to achieve one goal. MAKE EQ FUN AGAIN. I walked away with the feeling that we had accomplished something amazing, productive and positive. I think most felt that way.

I recorded all of the sessions (about 5 hours worth) and tomorrow will begin transcribing it. Off the top of my head, I'll briefly touch on some of the information before I fall asleep on my keyboard

Guilds:
There was a lot of discussion on how to improve guild functionality.

-Guild tribute points- members will soon be able to contribute points to their guild. The guild leader (and it was suggested HIGHLY that at least one other person should share the ability) to turn on favors that benefited the entire guild.

-Improved communication for raiding:
One of the things they would like to do is be able to add small sound bits that would allow each player to customize any text. For example a user would be able to tell the game, "Every time I get a tell make this sound" It would be completely customizable, and could easily be turned off should you not want to use it.

-Raid Notes:
Talk of adding Raid Notes to improve getting information across to raid members.

-Multiple corpse dragging as well as not having to spam your /corpse key.

We were told straight out that in hindsight increasing the raids to 72 was a mistake. Jumping from 72 back down to 54 in the next expansion was a mistake. We were also told. "That the required 72 person raid will not happen again" From now on all events will be developed around a 54 person raid.

Also in OOW, most of the content will be outdoors allowing a guild to bring as many or as few as they want. Content will be for everyone, including the more casual players and casual guilds. More solo, group and 2 group content will be included as well. There will be a couple of dungeons however, so they are really trying to make something for everyone.

Also it was interesting to hear Smedley say what really went wrong with GOD. Number one, beta was kept small in order to try to keep the information leeks to a minimum. Yes, they knew there were some issues with collision etc. However, they absoultely underestimated just how bad it was and how badly it would effect everyone. On top of that originally GOD was intended to include the level increase to 70. It wasn't until after it was released that they realized. OMG... this was built around 70's! Hence the extreme difficulty. It was refreshing to see responsiblity being taken. Developers are working full time doing nothing else except getting this fixed. I recognized them immediately as they appeared have pull their hair out (JK!)

Customer Service:
- The rest of the customer service changes will be implemented in next couple of weeks. It will include the new interface. From the customer service aspect side it gives them access to tools not available to them before. The ability to sort through petitions by urgency, the ability to restore items when the character is not even online, are just a few. Players will also find they can ammend their petitions, as well as see ingame what has been done so far. It was also suggested and SOE liked the idea of being able to see your place in que.

-Guides will stop having to be the secretaries. Guide postions will now be much more fun. They will have many script events available to them, as well as the ability to write their own. If they are approved and given the okie dokie, they can also be shared with other servers thus giving them a large choice of fun scripts. Expect many more events!!

-Removal of intact augements ARE coming! They are just trying to decide which system would be better. Solvents? Tradeskill? Sounded like they were leaning towards tradekills using combines that mid level players could get.

-AA's will soon be able to increase buff slots.

Enchanter stuff. I was able to get a a couple of devs cornered over the weekend. Unfortunately during round tables a couple of the people in my group monopolized the time leaving very little time for the other 13 people to discuss our issues. Instead we were forced to blurt out our main concerns, they wrote them down. However there was just no time left to actually discuss them in that enviroment. HOWEVER, I was able to get a couple of devs cornered and speak with them about enchanters.

They were a bit surprised that the spell cast recovery bug was still there. That was also on the top of my list for Rytan (the spell guy) Stackablity during raids, and the loss of our concern that there is a loss of our class defining abilities at upper levels were also discussed.

The enchanter is unique in our issues because our class abilities are directly tied to the level and abilities of the mobs. As they increase, so does the risk of the enchanter being much too powerful. However, at the same time the answer is simply not tagging everything immune because you don't know what else to do with it. In all fairness, part of the problem when Gates came out was that everything was built around the assumption most would be level 70 when they got there. When they realized the mistake that was made, some mobs again became charmable/mezzable as the content came back inline with the level of the players there.

Charm- a possible change they are looking at is scaling down the damage once it's charmed. They can leave mobs charmable then as they will be dealing "reasonable" damage. My response was .. but wait a second. In all fairness what happens when charm breaks? Does it return to the original damage? Risk vs Reward. There is no answer to this yet I'm afraid. They aren't quite sure what to do with it I don't think. I was told that more communications with enchanters WILL happen. So I hope all of you will put some thought into this topic so we can help come up with a compromise that both sides can live with. I will be posting a seperate thread devoted to this.

-Aggro from spells that a mob is immune to - I was told this should be pretty easy to fix. They were a bit surpised at this one. It's on the list now!

-The availabilty of tunics as well as robes. Again this was written down and they really didn't see a reason why it couldn't be added.

-Changing ones religion will not happen. Surprisingly because of the way the code is written when you create your character. In order to change your religion, your character would have to be completely recoded. So sorry gang... not in forseeable future. I believe this is also the case with gender, but one of the mouthier group members was talking over the developer. I will have to go back and listen again to the recording.

The entire list of posts, suggestions and concerns were sorted and given to the correct people. Developers and Customer Service all assured me that the weekend was NOT the only opportunity to discuss these issues. This weekend was the begining of a new era of SOE and players. Open communication and a desire to HEAR what we have to say is going to be the norm, not the exception. I truely believe that they are sincere in the desire to make the kind of game the players want.

They WANT to fix our concerns and they want us to be happy with the solution. I also found it interesting that several people when I was talking with them about our issues said something along of the lines of "Yah I saw that post on the boards" They DO read here, they knew what I was coming with on my list. They were also generous with buisness cards and the invitation to call or e-mail them. There was SO much ground to cover and as I said, I was a bit disappointed that classes were not given a bit more time. The balance to that is the fact that an open line is now open between us and the people who make this game.

At dinner that night we were all given this:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
June 5, 2004

Dear Guild and Community Representatives,

Thank you very much for a great Summit! By all accounts it was a huge success. I can speak for the EverQuest Development Team and tell you that we're grateful for the input you provided. In fact, in trying to generate this list to give to you this evening, we realized there was so much to go over that wouldn't be able to get a complete list together in time. We're committed to not only listening to your feedback, but working with you to make EverQuest more enjoyable for years to come.

So, we decided to list the Top Ten themes we would address starting Mondy, as well as the most common themes that we'll come back with more informationo n by mid-week next week.

A quick discussion resulted in a list of items that we will immediately address:

- Add scripting to shut off empty instances of Plane of Time
- Raid messages of the day
- Improving how we handle beta and the testing process
- Increase the number of debuffs allowed on the MOBs

- Increase buffs on players through AAs
- Note field on raid window
- Improved consent & drag for raid, group and guild
- Improve corpse drag radius

- Make charms not no-drop
- Guild and individual rewards for guild beta testing
- Work on large To Do list....I know this one is a little random

Future items we will immediately begin looking at and discussions are as follows:

- Plane of Time instancing and other issues
- Back flaggings solutions to help with High-end guild atrophy
- Improved raid and guild functionality
- Auto loot all for your corpse
- Improvements to Raid XP

- Review the Epic 2.0 quests
- No more alien NPCs ;-) (focusing more on familiar Norrathians themes)
- Solo LDoN-stype instances or similiar content
- Issues with item augmenetations
- Possible enhancements to Guild Wars

Of course these aren't all of the items. You brought us a CD, 2 books, 20 printed sheets and a manifesto. We'll need to go through all of those and our notes before we can really get a good tally of all of the wonderful ideas and questions that were presented.

Thank you again for your feedback and participation. We've had a great weekend and a wonderful display of things to come.

Sincerely,

Robert Pfister
Executive Producer
EverQuest


While you may notice that no class issues were included on this list my feeling is that the priority short term is getting the game back on track. Their list includes a few items they were already working on and our feebback confirmed they were on the right track. Other things on the list were a direct result of the Summit. Things that can be fixed fairly quickly showing they listened, and and that the Summit was not a farce. They are serious about making this game fun again.

As I said, I have several hours of recordings to transcribe. This was off my head some of the things discussed. I will begin posting the transciptions tomorrow. Since I can't keep my eyes open anymore, I close this post with the promise that more details will come in tomorrow.

[haewud]

Thank you kindly for a well-written report, Juwel!

[QenyaStarfury]

Thanks for the report. However, I gotta say I'm incredibly underwhelmed by what I've read about SoE's summit.

They say customer service is a top priority ... well, they said that years ago as well, when they stopped having a server GM, made roving GMs instead, and starting outsourcing to India.

What I do not understand is why people at SoE keep talking. They don't know about the spell recovery bug? How many times has that been /bugged? Do they even read those reports? Aggro from spells that are resisted ... they don't know about this? Do they even play their own game?

My biggest concern, and biggest pet peeve, is the lack of anything even coming close to mentioning melee re balancing. My god, monks have had legitimate gripes for the past 2 years. For the past year they've been told "Yeah, we're doing melee balancing now. Should see something soon." A year!

The reason I'm looking at this summit as a complete and utter waste of time is because SoE does not follow through on what they say. I'm sure they'll put in some of the easy to implement suggestions here - guild tribute, for example - but I will be shocked, truly and well shocked, if the most important thing is achieved ...

Making Everquest fun again.

[sinhuit]

Some good things in it , but this will not make people who have left the game come back. This will slow the amount of people leaving EQ but not reverse the trend. The 2 classes with the biggest gripes Monks and Druids (they cant heal GoD effectively) got nothing out of this and will continue to leave .

Some good stuff but not good enough (yet).

[Loral]

It was a pleasure to meet you, Juwel. Keep in touch!

[ootpek]

Whee! I can get my augments back soon!!!!

[Thothren]

Thanks for all your work Juwel!
On Sony's part, I think it is too little too late.

[Sunaeri]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if a fair number of the devs don't play the game outside of a testing environment. Don't forget it's their work. It's not as shiny and new when its something you have to program day in and day out. That's not something to criticise them on. How many of us do the same stuff we do at work outside of of work, for fun? I would wager a lot less than 50% in most fields.

Also, developer testing doesn't catch and see everything because they are looking at it the way that they coded it, and the way it is meant to work. Clients have to test it the way it will be used.

The summit alone encourages me. It is a good first step.

Thanks for representing enchanters Juwel.

[Salinu]

Thanks for representing us Juwel! and I think we should be optimistic that they listened and will do what they said.. At least I hope so

[Twizlewink]

The weak statement on the state of charm doesn't have me excited, sounds like they're really not sure on what to do with it still and that was the most emotional and important issue to me when I quit EQ.

Also, it's great to see they are focusing on the right issues, but I really didn't seen any indication of the timeline we can expect which leads me to ask if they really have enough staff to bring these changes about in a timely manner. What does it matter if they're making the game better but it takes years to see changes in game?

I would have liked to see some more indication that they have the infastructure to actually make these changes since it seems they have been working around the clock to resolve some of the most important issues that aren't resolved yet. Moreso when issues like spell casting recovery time are lost in the cracks I become REALLY skeptical of that infastructure. Poor documentation and poor programing and design practices are extremely difficult to overcome this late in a project of this size which as time goes on seems to me to be at the heart of the current instability of EQ and that's means retraining/replacing a pretty good chunk of your Live team to fix - not at all an easy or even realistic step. Only time will tell I guess.

[Dygar]

Talk's cheap. They've promised less than this in the past and never delivered on it. Until I see those things slated with a planned eta this is all just a big marketing stunt to invigorate disaffected players. They barely have the staff left to keep the ship afloat, much less fulfill that enormous list of pipe dreams.

[Tenien]

"-Aggro from spells that a mob is immune to - I was told this should be pretty easy to fix. They were a bit surpised at this one. It's on the list now!"

Good for enchanters but boy will that piss off the SKs and pallies that use snare and stun for aggro.

[rosi]

Thanks for that Juwel, having just read the official statement on my guild board I was very disappointed that it seemed to be focussing very much on high end content and people in high end guilds. However having read your summary I feel much happier that all kinds of issues were discussed.

[YadenTP]

It may be a small thing but I am excited about being able remove augs from armor, I think it will really increase the value of LDON and the time people spend in LDON getting nice augs.

[grumbuk]

We probably should have mentioned in the letter that we intentionally avoided class specific issues in the letter because class specific issues have already been getting addressed individually in the forums. I saw the "top 10" list of class-specific concerns that have been getting prepared on the EQLive forums and there's a lot of good stuff in there. The letter was prepared pretty hastily at a pre-dinner review of notes by everyone who worked the sessions and, kind of like the sessions themselves, also ran out of time to get to everything people had taken notes on so the list shouldn't be taken as a "review of everything and this was the most important" type of list, it was mostly "these are some hot topics, we'll get more details later" kind of list.

[Nanyea The Wayward]

Hi Grumbuk and welcome to therunes, thanks for posting

[Starmist]

Thanks for your hard work

It's amazing to me that anyone could desgin content for level 70 chars and then say DOH, no one is level 70 OMG we messed up

Bot knowing about bugs that have been bugged maybe thousands of times is almost more mind boggling

This doesn't fill me with confidnece nor give me a warm fuzzy feeling that anything will get fixed properly. Sony's history is to break two things for every one thing they try to fix, maybe an exaggeration, but not far from the truth. At this point in time, I need actions, not empty promises. I still haven't gotten an answer to my question in the Dev forum as to why the implementation of DX9 couldn't have been undone as soon as it was apperent that it was a disaster. I try to remain optimistic, but there isn't a lot of history on the part of Sony to make me thing they can follow thorugh.

[Juwel]

Yes, absolutely people from all play types had their say. One of the things I noticed was that I had heard that OOW was going to be another expansion tailored to hard core, high AA players. But now, they seem to be making OOW a more well rounded expansion.

The developers the artists truely LOVE this game. You could tell by the way they talked, they were excited about the opportunity to meet with players in a more intimate enviroment, and the excitment of the game was a bit contagous.

I didn't mention in my original summary but I will say this now... I was surprised at the level of candor by SOE this weekend. SOE employees were told, be honest, be straightforward. It showed. There were no excuses, there was no defending mistakes. It was obvious by talking to them that there wasn't some imaginary line they couldn't cross. I was caught a bit off guard at times with their honesty.

While people may be sceptical (I have to say that I was a bit myself when I went) they have to start someplace. The changes on the sheet we were given are issues that are being fixed immediately. They have to start someplace. I know that today and most of this week a lot of meetings are going to be taking place to go over, prioritize and sort through the incredible amount of information they were given. The list you see in the sheet we were given came in a manner of a couple of hours after round table discussions. When players were being bused back to the hotel to get refreshed and change for dinner, they were in meetings coming up with an immediate list to give us at dinner.

While there is no way for me to relate into text the excitement in the air this weekend, I can only say that it was definately there. SOE employees and players alike came together and both sides listened. They were honest, we were honest. SOE does have their credibility to earn back, and they know this. They know it's not going to be easy, they know it's going to take more than a weekend to earn it back. Only by following through with their commitment to getting back in touch with players is this going to happen. Players are skeptical, as we should be. It's going to take time and a pristine following through of their promises to earn back that credibility.

One of the things I said many times this weekend is "Players WANT to love the game again. If they didn't they wouldn't bother being worked up" Everyone of the SOE employees I spoke with nodded in agreement. It also seems that the summit was for the benefit of management. Dev's can only do what they are allowed to do. They have people to answer to just like most of us when we go to work. The Summit was an indication that management is listening.

This is the way I break it down.


-Management finally realized just how far they were from the playerbase. They are ready to listen to the developers and players. So they decide.. K.. let's start over with this Summit. The Summit will mark the begining of a new era between SOE and players. So let's get the SOE people in there,the ones who make this game and allow them to get direct feedback. They will stay at the hotel, drink and dine with the players. This allows a very intimate enviroment. Most of the most meaningful communication with the employees happened over breakfast, or over drinks.

-They will come back to management who has made the commitment to listen this time.

-Taking the feedback from players management is going to let the developers do their job now.

Now as far as enchanter specific issues. This is what I was told by a dev. It's not an easy class to address because our class defining abilities are directly related to the mobs. *K.. makes perfect sense to me* Enchanters can EASILY be overpowered. *I also agree with this* It's going to take a bit of time and creativity on their part to allow the mobs to be difficult while not stripping us of those abilities in the process. I can only say that I feel confident they are listening, and we are going to be addressed specifically. I wish there was a way to put into text the feeling I had. Pretty much the topic of this thread summed it up. I have renewed hope that the game I love will return to being fun, creative, challenging. That it's going to stop being so focused on the job of progression that many of us were forced into. And basically for many, that's exactly what it became. A JOB. We HAD to complete tasks, if we wanted to stay with the people we knew. We HAD to progress because there was not a whole lot left to do.

For those who say it's a day late and a dollar short, I can only hope that you give them a chance to make it or break it. I also said to SOE employees "Here's the thing with the Summit from a players POV. Most had given up on EQ to some degree. Many were just playing until the day they just can't bring themselves to sign on again. They step closer to that line every day because SOE hasn't been listening. Now that you've had the Summit and have presented yourselves as a better SOE if you don't listen, if you don't make changes as a direct result of this weekend, it's over. For players this weekend is the final opportunity to earn back your credibility" Not one person disagreed, and most nodded and said "We know this"

Oh I also wanted to add something I forgot to mention in my initial summary! Epics... instead of being an all or nothing item the epic is going to be progressive. Some of the steps are going to be done solo, some with one group, some of it with a couple of groups. The final step of the epic will be a very large fight. I really like the idea of a progessive epic. From what I heard you will not have to have the first one in order to get the 2nd epic, however if you have it it will allow a player to skip several steps. Not only that but the difficulty will be on par across all classes. So no more of one class struggling to complete their epics while other classes are able to complete it with a level 55.

LOTS of great stuff over the weekend, and tons of information for those who attended to get out to the players. It will take me a couple of days, but I will get it all posted!!

Oh and Loral, it was great to meet you as well!

[AriuVilAki]

Thank you Juwel.

I, for one, am optomistic. Just having the guides triggering events on servers will do A LOT to bring back the old flavor of EQ IMO.

[Mezrin Kortex]

From the non-raider perspective:

Note how I didn't title this "From the Casual Gamer's Perspective":

I do not consider myself casual. Since I have Two level 65 characters, 4 accounts, run a guild, lead raids and am in the game 3-5 hours every night, I have ceased to call myself casual.

Power gamer does not equal raider
Casual does not equal non-raider

Raider and non-raider are playstyles.
Casual and power-gamer reflect lifestyles.

Ones lifestyle may not allow for a raiding playstyle. Content should be designed independent of lifestyle or playstlye. My largest concern is that the non-raiding playstyle was not represented at this meeting. This is wholely unfortunate as the majority of EQ players are not raiders. In this case it seems that the most vocal and visual individuals got the representation.

Note how I said that this is how it SEEMS. I will hold out hope that SOE heard more than one perspective and LISTENED. Some don't think much of LDoN, but I love it. We need more of it. More themes, better armor, more focus effects, ability to sell back not only purchased aug's, but purchased equipment.

The best summary I have seen so far of this event is from The Steel Warrior where they speak not only of the raiders perspective, but also SOME non-raider stuff such as higher cost LDoN equipment.

Hopefully someone will post a non-raiders summary soon.

[Kailyn]

URL? And I still have an alergic reaction to the sony boards.

[Juwel]

If you go back and re read the summary players of all types of play were represented. The fact that we were told "Mark my word, the day of the required 72 player event will not happen again" Large events are going to be designed around 54 max. Lots of content for groups, more casual players and even some soloable content is being added. It will be a well rounded expansion with all types of players taken into consideration.

Not only that, but it was indicated that more things that will allow a player to sign on and do while they are LFG, or only have a short amount of time is also going to be included.

Though I wasn't told this, my impression was that the developers have much more freedom now to post and create discussion. In the past Brenlo was our liason. It's wonderful to see Developers allowed to have direct communication with us. Not that we don't still need ya Brenlo Seems I may be right as the Lead Programmer has just posted.

In all fairness, I think they should be given a chance to prove themselves. SOE went to a helluva lot of trouble to let all of us know they are serious. And while there was plenty of laughing and ribbing going on over the weekend, the seriousness of the weekend was not lost. We all knew why we were there, and we were all determined to make it meaningful.

Anyway time to get some of these pics posted!!

[Lumenus]

Juwel

As to the non raider but very active raider, SOE refers to you as the serious player, you are not grouped in with the casual bunch just because you don't raid.

I think all guilds also expressed the feeling that the game needs to be fun for players that choose not to be in high end guilds. OoW is supposed to be geared for that need while still having high end content.

Was a pleasure to meet Juwel a very nice person and it definitely made the weekend more fun to having her to hand out with.

/hugs

[Juwel]

LOL, now I have to relearn all of the ingame names with everyone's RL names!!

It was great to meet you as well. I was impressed with the degree of candor from SOE. I have high hopes for many positive changes for players of all types of play. The term "Serious" player is an excellent term and one I hope sticks!

[Danyela]

I, unfortunately, put myself in the pessimist camp. I will be the first to cheer if they actually do come through with anything substantial, but I am still very disappointed with how they 'handled' not understanding the faction system. All the old programmers are gone, the new ones don't get it, so they just wiped faction from all our non-PC illusions. Great solution that has never been re-addressed.

I do have a fundamental question about the new augment system. I am assuming there are a lot of people in the same position as myself in game. Basically, you have a lot of nice EP gear augmented with type 7 slots, and you are just starting to get your first few pieces of Time or GoD gear with type 8 slots. If you are going to be able to remove all those nice type 7 augments, is there going to be a way to actually recycle them on type 8 gear (or does a type 8 slot already take a type 7 augment)?

I also don't see all the hullabaloo about charming being overpowering. The design of the mobs is the only reason this is the case. If they made content more difficult via any means other than harder hitting mobs with fewer hit points, then charmed pets wouldn't become such monster killing machines. We are getting penalized by losing the ability to use our spells, but it isn't our fault the content was designed that way. I really wonder if the developers understand how boring a raid is when you are in an area where there is nothing you can charm, and all the mobs have such high magic resist that they are practically immune to everything you cast.

BTW, I have read the summaries on some other class boards today as well. I think it was the warrior board where a side discussion with a developer disclosed that Velious was their biggest failure, and LOY was their biggest success. The warrior in that discussion thought exactly the opposite. I bet you won't find many enchanters who liked Velious, so at least on that point we agree ;)