Enchanter charm vs Necro charm

[pinny]

I would like to make a request that someone check the dps of a mob while charmed by a necro as compared to that same mob charmed by an enchanter. The only difference in the pets should be the charm spell.

Recently I was duoing with a necro and he wished to take a break from charming so I took over the pet for a while. While I had the pet charmed we noticed the mobs took longer to die. We ran some tests and found that in the amount of time it took the necro to kill a mob the enchanter would have the mob down to 30%..

I mentioned this to the serverwide enchanter channel but no one believed me. I also petitioned this but the GM did not believe me either. I wish that someone with more skills at parsing or so would check this out and confirm this. I am not knowledgable enough to do so nor do I have the time but it sucks that no one believes me and it makes me mad to think that enchanters have nerfed silently.

[QenyaStarfury]

Did the necro dot at all? They can really lay on some dps with only one or two of their spells.

[Shurik]

Exactly - he "wished to take a break" lol. Maybe the necro was taking more of a break then you think :wink: .

Necros can do 200+ DPS no prob and sustain it indefinately (over the charmed pet). This just takes the LDON dot (Horror) + lvl 65 dot (Blood of Thule) + their best Fire dot (FP or one from GoD) + a nuke or two.

Cheers,

Shurik

[pinny]

I obviously wouldn't have posted if the necro was doing damage on top of the pet. We took the time to run a few trials to see if there was a difference of dps when I charmed verses when the necro charmed. The only buff on the pet was Speed of Shissar and Command of Druzzil when I charmed and Speed of Shissar and Word of Terris when the necro charmed. In the same amount of time it took the necro to kill a mob, I was only able to get the mob down to 30% with the same pet. We tried it several times, not just once or twice. I'm asking for someone to try it out and not just tell me I'm wrong.

(The necro did NOT cast any buffs on the pet, only Word of Terris)

[Juwel]

Hmm. Will be interesting to find out one way or another!

[Provender]

Hmm, does the necro have a pet focus item? Perhaps there is a bug, and the necro's pet focus item is improving his charmed pet? I would really like to see your logs (or someone else's) demonstrating this disparity in damage.

[Belanar]

Pet focus just raises the level/stats of pets at the instant you summon them. You can put the focus item in a bag after that and it won't change anything. I can't think of a way something like that would affect a charmed pet.

[Starmist]

did you happen to notice if the decrease in kill speed was a rsult of lower damage per hit or decreased attack speed? It seems to me that if all else was eqaul you should be able to identify one of these two factors as the culprit

[Shurik]

By any chance, is this your friend/you?

http://necro.eqclasses.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2250

Because it seems like there is a lot more going on in that story then just Shissar/Charm.

I dunno, its likely that pet AAs are messed up after the recent patch. And I don't buy that "necro charmed pets get to quad" theory. I have never seen that happen and I have charmed with both necro and enchanter. And lost time I was in CoD with any charmer (long ago), my pets did not quad. I am sorry I can't try the test you mention, because my two toons are on the same account.

I do kill a little faster with the necro charming, but that is becuase I throw in a couple of DoTs. I know you already mentioned this is not the case. I got to tell you its a hell of a lot easier for me to charm with the chanter simply because of one dumb spell - tash.

Good luck with parsing,

Shurik

[pinny]

Yep, that's my friend. Looks like I should have asked the necromancers in the first place. What they are saying there fits with what I experienced.

[Breez]

IF that is the same Necro... The stats from the shammy buffs could mean more DPS. I found it interesting that he mentioned the shammy buufs where the chanter did not. However if they swapped pets, unless they dispelled to get rid of charm, those buffs would have remained.

I have never looked at Necro pet aaxp's but it would be very interesting if they do effect thier charmed pets.

[AriuVilAki]

Seems to me the two of you did a great job controlling the situation (good idea swapping pets btw!) and have proven, conclusively, that a necro pet will quad whereas an enchanter pet will not.

[pinny]

We did check it out a few times, but not technically. Just observations and no logging or parsing or anything like that. I just wanted to rant and rave a little about it and determine if anyone else had noticed this. I had already complained to my necro friend about his 20 1/2 min charm vs my 7 1/2 min charm, and this seemed like some icing on the cake. I don't mean to complain that we are not balanced properly or anything, his charms would never last the full 20 1/2 mins with out my tashan, but I never imagined that his charm would be different/better than mine (who is the charming class here anyways??)

[stormieweather]

Lots of classes can charm - druids, bards, necros, mages and enchanters - however these other classes are so limited in WHAT they can charm. Enchanters, on the other hand, can charm everything these classes can PLUS everything else out there that is charmable up to level 64 (with CoD).

It is interesting however, that the necro's charmed pet hit harder and apparently faster than when charmed by the enchanter. I would be curious to know if when a necro charms, does that mob retain it's innate abilities? ie: kick, self-buffing, charm, etc... or does it simply become a killing machine?

Stormieweather
65th Enchanter

[AriuVilAki]

Read the necro post linked in this thread. It gains the ability to quad.

[Aerdyn]

I know some people will say so what to this ... but I find it rude and it seems like a bug.

Necro/SK summoned pets quad by default (unlike shaman ones for example, this was proven in other threads on shaman and necro boards). It shocks me to think that the charmed pet behaves differently though.

Has anyone made any devs aware of this because I pretty much think it's bs. Any class that can charm should have charm's power limited by the charm itself, or by AAs affecting charm. As far as I know, the only charm AAs are dire charm, and total domination.

Thanks

[Belanar]

Why are you suddenly so upset about something that has no effect on your life and you would never have known about except for this thread?

At 65 necros can only usefully charm in one zone in the entire game (well, plus sometimes easy LDoN in Mistmoore). So they get free quadding and we have to go through the long, tedious process of handing 2 weapons to our pet to get it to quad. Leave em alone.

[AriuVilAki]

At 65 necros can only usefully charm in one zone in the entire game (well, plus sometimes easy LDoN in Mistmoore).

Don't forget Nadox and Hate's Fury. The only reason xp there isn't comparable for us to upper tier PoP with the new ZEMs is because of DPS. Necros could get AA fairly quickly charming in undead Nadox.. Not to mention a decent amount of platinum.

But, basically, I agree with you. I'd rather see our class get boosted than another class nerfed. Moreover, raiding is clearly where we are weakest atm and making our charms even stronger would probably just make it so that their use was restricted in even more places than they already are.

[Culbryz]

How many necros do you know that charm on a regular basis? I don't know any. Sound like a bug, but no one's getting hurt by it and it's not that exploitable. Leave it in I say.

[Montaigne]

it makes me mad to think that enchanters have nerfed silently.

There have been many silent nerfs to charm as the devs don't like this particular ability of our class as much as we do. The way the game is headed(high dps and low hp mobs) I can see why there are so many charm nerfs as it is.

So they get free quadding and we have to go through the long, tedious process of handing 2 weapons to our pet to get it to quad. Leave em alone.

Not having to go out of my way to get mage summoned weapons whenever I want to charm something would be nice. No need to nerf necros, but why not enhance our class(or put us back in place as the rightful kings of charming as the case may be)?

[Zeeta]

The reason why you see the huge discrepancy is because CoD mobs will not use weapons and thus not dual weild while under enchanter charm.

The necro charm automatically gives them the ability to quad without using weapons.

I am trying to think of a zone where you can test dual weilding enchanter charmed mobs up against a similar necro charmed pet. My bet is that the discrepancy will be next to none...

So necros have a slight advantage in zones where mobs will not accept weapons. Good for them - their charm has limited use as it is.

Zeeta
Coercer
Bristlebane

[Twizlewink]

Read the necro post linked in this thread. It gains the ability to quad.

I think they were being sarcastic. Any necros charm a level 1 skel who can suddenly quad? I think this is probably a case of seeing a pattern that isn't really there because they did a small sample and didn't bother to actually measure. The poster suggested he didn't even notice if the enchanter pet quaded or not and it could just reflect that the necro is better at noticing quad hits then the enchanter was for whatever reason. No logs, no parsing, and no good reason to believe it's true I'm forced to conclude it's a myth till I'm presented with better evidence.

[AriuVilAki]

Twiz, I didn't get that feeling. I think his last post was just trying to pre-emptively prevent a flamewar about nerfbats, etc. This should be easy enough to test though.. All a necro would have to do is charm some level 1 skelly and sick it on another skelly without ANY buffs and without DPSing themselves. If the charmed one wins each and every fight by a significant margin, I think it would be safe to assume that it is, in fact, quading. You could easily swap and do a test with 10 different pets, too, to assure that none of them are higher level than the others. Or have a level 1 toon come with you and con them.. Take the lower level one as a pet.

The only hard part to this would be finding a necro willing to help you. Perhaps pinny, you and your friend would be willing to try this as a follow-up to the initial tests?

[Aerdyn]

I'm pretty sure the ability to quad is level based. i.e. Our pets don't quad until X level and cant even when given weapons. I thought it was like level 25 or 35 pets.

Regardless, test this on a level 35ish mob, like ones in Kaesora.

Aerdyn

[pinny]

My necro friend and I went back and tested some and to our satisfaction we found that:
-necro charm did give the mob quad abilities (it had none before)
-my charm did not give quad abilities (I don't believe it even tripled)
-giving the enchanter charmed mob two weapons did NOT allow it to quad (giving the pet two one handed weapons made no difference to casual observations)

Whether some one wants to research this further it's all up to you. I am surprised by the findings, but I would not like to see the necros get nerfed.

Thanks everyone for your time.